Fuel usuage 330 ss


WOW this topic exploded over the weekend. Boating season must be close. People are thinking more and more about boating and participating here. That is awesome.

I would like to drop my two cents here on the small block v. big block debate. Of course my thoughts are worth the afore mentioned two cents so take it as you will.

I used to get great pleasure in my drag/street racing days in building and racing small blocks to beat big blocks. What I found was that I ended up with way too radically built small blocks that had a relatively short life span. When I got to the point I wanted to drive my hot rods on a daily basis. I found out about the wonderful world of big blocks.

As the saying goes there is no replacement for displacement. I found that I could have a mild big block make 450hp or a radical small block that needed seriously high rpms to make that same 450hp. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that 450hp made at 4000rpm will last longer than 450hp made at 7000rpm. Big blocks were more drivable on a daily basis for like amounts of power made and could last a long time.

I also think I have heard somewhere that while hp is more related to rpm's, torque ( which actually does the work) is more directly related to displacement.

Of course I have very little experience hot rodding boats. I actually decided I had enough hot rodding cars and love the reliability of turn key operation. So my views may have little or no relation to the marine world. I enjoy the power my boat has and the speed when I get a nice glassy piece of water. But most of the time I enjoy checking out the scenery or anchoring and having a cold one.

I ordered big blocks for most of the reasons already talked about here. Better mid range, seemingly better mileage at cruise speeds, better hole shot (especially with a load) and hopefully, longer lifespan in a relatively heavy boat. But all of those reasons are mine and mine alone. The sound of a small block at 6000rpm is a song to my ears, and the sound a a big block idling then pulling hard to get a load moving is equally pretty. I can appreciate both for different reasons.

Make your own choices with whatever educated guess you feel most comfortable with. Ask people you trust and know then go for it! Formula's are great boats and extremely well engineered. I seriously doubt they would offer an engine package that was underpowered by most boaters definitions.
 
If we are talking about cars and hod rods and such then I completely agree, and I also kinda agree when it comes to boats. However, my point is that there are a lot more factors that can affect performance in a boat regardless of engine. Compare Formula performance and cruising speed and gas burn rate with SB to other boats with with similar setup and you will see what I mean. BB will give you better hole shot and couple of extra miles at cruise speed as well as at WOT but it will burn a bit more and add cost and weight to the boat. If that is what you are looking for then great, I personally did not see it as compromise especially with the way my boat has performed so far. That also can be attributed to the fact that I am not looking for speed as much as I am looking for quality, ride, and handeling.
 
Well if I speak again will that make .04 cents??? ;D

It is quite impressive how a current small block has the same hp of the big block in my old 87. Technology has helped out in a tremendous way with roller valve train, fuel injection and computer enhanced timing control. Some comparisons are difficult to make with these advancements.

I am strongly a (like CUDA says) "chebby" man so sb or bb its all good. I find the bb better suited for my ameneties on water.
Happy boating to all sb and bb owners ;D ;D ;)
 
Is there a new block on the block: dd?? ;)
Now if I can get anything to get me on the water, I will be set after all said and done. :)
 
Aquaforce, You are right. It is amazing how much power they get out of these engines now. I have a friend who had a 26' Wellcraft Nova. It had twin small blocks. I think they were rated at 250hp or something, not sure. But they were 4 barrel motors stock and that boat would barely do 60mph, in fact 57 was probably closer to its top speed. Now a days you would never see a boat that size with twin V-8's. It would probably have a single big block or one of the bigger small blocks, ie 6.2 and would probably outrun those older twins.

Marine engines are still behind technology wise from their automotive counterparts but they have made tremendous advancements.
 
LBI4fun said:
Is there a new block on the block: dd?? ;)
Now if I can get anything to get me on the water, I will be set after all said and done. :)
Click to expand...


oops, typo... will have to correct that...hate to think I was talking Ford or something 8)
 
I have looked deeply into marine engine controls. What Merc has done with fuel injection is the most advanced to date but I agree that the automotive control curve is ahead of marine and heavy trucks too. Of all I've seen from the marine competition Merc is the most advanced and the closest to optimal controls than any other. That is why I'm sticking to Merc power. Volvo is making way in the drive area but their controls are very far behind Merc, speaking of gasoline engines.
 
The electronics on marine engines have come along way and it seems it is all pretty recent. Almost like a tech explosion! I was actually more referring to the mechanics of engines. There are very few ohv engines left in autos. In fact Gm may be the last hold out. I am a GM fan and think its amazing the kind of power they are getting from in ohv engines, naturally aspirated, compared to what Ford gets out of multiple valve and even supercharged engines. But even the ohv engines being used by the marine industry is behind what automakers are using. GM is two generations of engines past the small block 350. It makes me wonder why volvo and merc don't at least start using the newest LS1 engines. If its a cost factor then why aren't these older designs going down in price? Unless of course they are using the price difference to integrate more electronic controls.
 
I COULD BE WRONG IN SAYING THIS, BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT GM RELEASES THEIR BLOCKS TO MERC AND VOLVO UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN ON THE MARKET FOR A WHILE. REMEMBER WHEN FUEL INJECTION WAS NOT AVAILABLE ON A BOAT, BUT WAS IN CARS FOR A LONG TIME?
 
You could be right about GM not giving the latest and greatest to the marine manufacturers. As far as fuel injection goes though the fuel injection set up s the marine engines use is not exactly the same as the autos. Its got most of the same type of thing-a-ma-bobs, and doo-hickys but it is mostly their own setups. So i do not think it was a case of being held back by the auto manufacturers. I think is was more a case of us the customer not demanding to get the best for our boats. This industry has been long lacking in customer service in many regards. That is all starting to change. It is a certainty that the easier and more reliable boats become the more they will sell. But it seems like an idea that has been fought against by the Marine industry as a whole for years and years. "Buy what we sell and like it or else". Seems to have been the credo. No real effort to attract new people to boating has been done until recently. It used to be that unless you were very mechanically inclined or just really really very rich. Boating was not for you. I am so happy to see engines that start when they are supposed to and efforts being made to make oil changes easier and flushes easier. That and anything else done to make boating more pain free and less an exercises in mechanical engineering will make boating more attractive to more and more people. Which is good for all of us.
 
I'll weigh in a couple more cents worth....till gas goes up again ;D

The engines in production are readily available, from my auto understanding, but more preping is done before one is ready for the water. For example the marine 6.2L is worked up from the street version 6.0L and other displacement comparisons could further this example. Additionally how a manufacturer rigs the fuel and ignition systems is dramatically different from one boat builder to another. Just like Macjazzy observes quality and practical issues took a back seat to PROFITS!!! Bayliner for one example is one who sells a very low priced boat, but a person is very hard pressed to find fuel injection on most of their boats. Fuel injection costs more and is more reliable but the manufacturer wants MONEY they don't care about customer service or quality IMHO. I know I'm beating a dead horse with the Bayliner example but I think it is an obvious illustration. The first time fuel injection was available for the water some quality minded builders went with it and stayed with it but of course the price of the boat was more. Some still produce boats with carbs. Carbs work but not the best.

The engine control system for water is nothing at all like the street. Some physical components are shared but few. The first year fuel injection came out in boats it was almost a flop it had automotive influence in it. Overfueling caused hard start problems and detonation caused longevity issues on the other end of the spectrum. The auto industry had no interest in developing water systems since that was a small market comparatively and the investment might not payoff. Plus the riggors of the water would have to be tested for designing power curves and GM for one did not care. On the street, the variables to engine load are weight, wind drag and available horsepower (the same three that primarily effect mileage too). On the water one constant that adversely effects timing curves is the fact that a boat has to move the weight of it's own displacement in the water. This engine load would vary from top speed, cruising, towing, getting onto plane and what this means for engine controls is a very elaborate control system that must be able to factor this constant load without detonating. Easy to say but very involved when the volatility of pump gas is a limitation. This challenge has hindered marine advancement till closer to 2000. Since Merc is already involved in the water market they had the resources to test and design a computer control system that is water optimized. It is very resilient and currently my understanding is that no one else has equalled the research and testing for water systems that Merc has put out. The SmartCraft system is the best of Merc's design and when they finish their design of the tabs working in conjunction to steering, boats will have an additional edge for maneuvering.
 
Very good points Aquaforce I see you have done some research into this. Do you have a professional interest or just a pleasure boater?

One point I do have to dissagree with is that the merc 6.2 is not a version of a street 6.0. The street 6.0 is two generations of small block advanced from the traditional 350 we all know and love. the 6.2 merc uses is a stroked version of a 350 v8. The street 6.0 is a LS1 which is a completely different engine although it is still considered a small block Chevy. The only thing it shares with the original small block chevy is bore spacing.

As far as I know the 496 big block is the only current marine engine that is the same as the automotive version mechanically. Although ski boats do seem to use a variety of different engines. I think I read somehwere that at least one company was using a marinized version of a Cadillac Northstar enigine in their ski boats, but I have never seen one.
 
macjazzy
I am a career professional in automotive technology and I am obsessive in my hobby BOATING.

Your right about my engine example; not a very good way to illustrate marinizing. I didn't want to get into all the technical explanations. Boats need torque so stroking is the most common method of marinizing which requires a modification to the production engine assembly. Also because of the load range on the engine steel cranks and forged pistons are frequently used but not always. Some small engines put under great loads were prepped this way for the engine to work. Maybe that was easier to say  ;D

With Merc's "Horizon" setup some engines are now used that would not have been good candidates. Aluminum heads would not live in salt but the "Horizon" is closed cooling with antifreeze. This not only makes winterizing easier but a wider engine selection possibility.
I've heard of the NorthStar engine used also but like you I have not seen one. I'm sure it has a closed cooling system with antifreeze.
 
Having a closed cooling system also makes fuel injection work better, as it is easier to regulate engine temp to a constant temp with a closed system. Although now you can get fuel injection on a raw water cooled system.

I too am in the automotive business. I am a career Senior master mechanic for a ford dealer but I spend more time than the average mechanic studying the industry as a whole. I find it fascinating. Its also great to hear a bunch of mechanics complaing and bitching about some part of a car or engine etc and be able to step in and explain the corporate thinking that went in to the decision. I am always surprised at how short sighted most people in my field are.

You bring up a lot of great points of marinized engines. I am aware of the extreme loads placed on boat engines that automotive engines never experience. For example a car at highway speeds needs a very small portion of its rated power to maintain its speed. Hence the new engines with cylinder shut down technology. But a boat never gets a break like that except maybe at displacement speeds. It is easy to compare. Take your car up to 45mph then shift it into neutral, see how far it coasts. then do the same with your boat.

Along with stronger crank, rods and pistons. Another thing most people do not know is that the cam profiles are very different. Not only for the performance needed for different usages but traditionally the lobe spacing is very different as boats have an issue that cars do not. Namely reversion, ie sucking water up the exhaust. due to cam overlap or too close cam lobe spacing. I know of a few people myself who have found that out when they built an engine using drag race or hot rod knowledge and put it into a boat. Its a hard lesson!
 
macjazzy
Sounds like we have similar a knowledge base. Mine has been with Oldsmobile and Cadillac predominately. There are some other things mixed in there to; working with a drag racer is one. I learned high perf from him and he owned the shop so I contributed the production side of technology. I built a 400hp small block and was about to stick it in a boat till I learned that the lobe centers can not be over 112 or reversion would get the eng. Needless to say that eng did not go in a boat. I just recently sold it and the procedes will go in my boat. ;D ;D

Oh yea, I learned last week that I have an SS and not an LS. Guess that puts me in a different crowd of boaters. ??? It's all good... still Formula ;) 8)
 
Dont forget about Oil Restrictor in the marinized engines. With out em, the constant high rpms would suck all the oil out of the pan.
 
macjazzy said:
I too am in the automotive business. I am a career Senior master mechanic for a ford dealer
Click to expand...

Small world Macjazzy, I'm a Senior Master as well working at Sheehy Ford (I know this won't score any points with Aquaforce  ;) ). I see your on the South River and your name is on the CBPBA website as well. Hopfully we can hookup sometime this summer and swap some Ford love/hate stories.  ;D
 
We're all Formula family here ;D ;D ;D


I just don't speak the F@&D word ;D ;D Whatever brings home the bacon is good 8)
 
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